brip blap - Latest Comments in rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

freeby50 — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:35:12 -0000

Good post.

I for one am absolutely in favor of having the 'elite' among us rise to the top of our leadership. Isn't that just common sense? You'd think it would be but our society somehow has decided that elite = bad.

I think the problem with the perception towards elite or elitism is mostly a result of some clever political marketing spin plus peoples built in dislike of arrogance. When I think of the word "elite" I think of the "best". Thats good. When I think of the word "elitism" I think of "arrogant" or "snob". Thats bad. If you are running a political campaign and your candidate isn't part of the establisment or isn't viewed as highly intellectual as compared to their opponent then its in your best interest to paint the other side as bad. You can use that "elitism" word to your advantage. This is how the "washington elite" has been marketed as a bad thing. Talking heads on TV and politicians will spit the phrase out in connection of everything that is bad with our government then tie it to the other political side. If they repeat the lie often enough then it can become truth. Over time "elite" becomes associated with bad things. Because people who are trying to get their guy elected said so and we heard it enough that we as a country start to buy into it.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Layneh — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:57:41 -0000

I agree, elitism is something any educated person would aspire to achieve. The fact that on is educated is a step in that direction as well.

Most often heard in politics and on wall street, by those who class themselves as populists, or "of the people", as to say commoners. Yet the idea that they do not seek elitism itself is hypocritical. To suggest that they (the populists) do not want to become elite would suggest they never want to achieve the highest levels of education, intellect or wealth (the later something all people seem to desire).

These reasons alone tell me to think hard and long on political parties, one seems based upon a lie, where the other seems labeled an atrocity.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

guinness416 — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:04:42 -0000

It's getting very Daily Mail in here! I've been following an interesting freakonomics blog thread about where south asian immigrants should give their charitable donations (I'm married to a SA guy and he has his own opinions on the subject) and some comments there are just appalled at the elitism they see built in to the original article. You do see that in some immigrants - a complete befuddlement as to why youse natural born yanks don't have the attitude in your third paragraph there by default.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Steve — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 09:13:23 -0000

@FP - no, you're absolutely correct - some of the most important things in life don't require a test, and (somehow) it would be nice if they did. You have to get a license to clean out plumbing, but not to have children. It's a little bit crazy.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Ruth — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 08:38:41 -0000

There are several fascinating books by a guy named Richard Florida about the new/future creative class, and about how certain cities seem to be welcoming and attracting this new creative class. This sounds like what you are getting at.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Four Pillars — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 23:51:59 -0000

I would love to be the elite - intellectually, financially etc - I think the mark of every ambitious person is that they want to be better than everyone else.

As for voting tests - I know it's almost a cliche, but how but minimum standards to be a parent?? Hmmmm?? :)

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Sarah — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:47:47 -0000

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

But actually, what I was getting at is that once there is -any- "definition" of what is an elite, the definition itself becomes a self-reinforcing enemy to progress. I think it's important to have a dialogue about what the definition -should be-, but beyond that, there needs to be room for the definition to evolve.

I think right now, we both agree that there needs to be change. What I'm saying, though, is that the change cannot be just another change in a static definition. The change needs to be a move from a static definition to a dynamic definition, if you will. Today we need people who are dedicated and intelligent. What if we have different needs in the future? In other words, I do not think 'elite' should be a word that is agreed upon, because it would indicate a sort of stagnation.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

plonkee — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 18:30:10 -0000

@bripblap:
That's ok, I'm forever qualifying words I use about myself. I normally end up saying that I'm liberal by every definition - because it's kind of true, not better.

I think it's funny that I claim to be well educated, and yet failed to spell it correctly earler :)

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Steve — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:43:31 -0000

@Sarah: I understand your point, and you're right that if the 'elite' standard is judged by who has the prettiest hair, it's a bad sort of elite. But that's really what I was getting at - I would like to think the idea of 'elite' could be reclaimed and rebranded from simply "people who inherit wealth" or "people who attend an Ivy" to something better and more - in my opinion - useful. Whether you think that's possible is probably a function of optimism (and I was feeling optimistic when I wrote it).

And yes, I'm sure we've all seen what having an "old definition" elite President has done for us. Let's see what the "new definition" elite President will do for us now... :)

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Steve — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:37:40 -0000

@plonkee: In the phrase about a liberal mindset I was just trying to draw the distinction between the political use of the word and the "open mind" sense of the word, just in that phrase. I wasn't making any statement about politics. Politically I'm sure it's fairly obvious that I am a center-left American, although I know that probably still leaves me to the right of 99% of Europeans :)

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

plonkee — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 05:19:54 -0000

Hmm. I'm not sure what I think. I'm quite a proud liberal in many senses of the word, and you're sort of implying that you'd never be so low as to stoop to being politically liberal. Hopefully that's not what you meant, you were simply trying to state your actual position accurately.

I've often thought that voting tests would be good, possibly including questions on which newspapers you read and believe. But, as the US experience in the southern states shows it's too easy to rig such tests to disenfranchise some group or other unfairly. In Britain, it used to be the case that you had to own property to vote - I believe, though, that's one of the things that the American founding fathers didn't like.

A meritocracy would be really nice, but that's because I am intelligent and well-edicated. One of the problems we have over here (which may or may not be true in the US) is that middle class, elite parents would hate to admit that their child was actually not all that bright - if people come up though, it stands to reason that some must go down as well.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Sarah — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 01:32:13 -0000

I have to say I disagree. The word 'elite' in and of itself refers only to the quality of being chosen as the best, not the reason for being chosen. And that's the problem. People have different criteria for choosing the best. That's most likely why the word has acquired a negative connotation- there's always somebody who disagrees with how 'the elite' are chosen. You want it to be by intelligence and effort. What if somebody else wants it to be by the ability to manage people and public opinion?

The problem with elitism in politics is groupthink. But it doesn't stop there. Similar people (families/upbringings/educations/social classes) tend to make decisions in the same way. Such a lack of diversity leads to poor decisions, and that's not what I want for my country, science, or the development of society as a whole. Diversity is necessary for improvement. 'Elitism', in the sense of favoring the 'elite' over dissenting opinions as a shortcut for evaluating every possibility to the fullest extent possible, is damaging in a real-world context.
Exceptional people in terms of knowledge are not exceptional because they are chosen by others ('elite'). They just are. As you have observed, it is a quality that they have and nurture. 'Elite' is just a fancy word for popular. And providence help us all if it's some drunken frat boy running the place (oh, wait....)

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

KevinW — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:49:06 -0000

I mostly agree, I am finishing a science PhD, and according to public sentiment, dedicating 10 years of my life to mastering a single subject makes me an "elite" and somehow LESS qualified to speak on that subject. I share Jacob's disapproval for academics that behave as if their training makes them experts on everything. But I'm distressed at how quickly we collectively dismiss the professional opinions of highly trained experts such as doctors, scientists, professors, judges, etc. Ultimately, when we ignore experts and make all our decisions using lay common sense, we waste the large societal and personal investment in advanced education.

However I disagree strongly with the idea of a voting quiz. In practice I think there is a lot of overlap between the people that would fail, and the people that don't bother to vote. When someone abstains, in a sense they are saying "I have nothing to add to this decision, so I'll leave it to everyone else," whether that thought process is conscious or not. I'll spare everyone the pertinent Rush quote. The fact that voting is optional naturally filters out the uninterested, and the fact that it requires some fundamental organizational skills filters out the grossly incompetent. When you start adding preconditions to voting you disenfranchise large groups who may be motivated to overthrow the system rather than participate in it. Yes, a few people will make uninformed decisions, but our government needs to sustain a basic level of "buy-in" from the uninformed to remain viable.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

June — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:01:54 -0000

I am very happy with this post because you bring up an important point. Elitist is a word that has been badly misused. And yet, if you believe George Orwell's belief that words do not lose their original meaning, and gain a new incorrect one, haphazardly, then America has a problem. The notion of elitism is important. Without it, a nation can sink into mediocrity.

Elitism, or the intrinsic motivation to achieve excellence is NOT a negative attribute. I hope you teach that to your children, and you continue to pursue it yourself.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

deepali — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:51:13 -0000

what's the difference between elite and elitist? i'm thinking the first is the real deal, and the second is simply displaying the trappings...

personally, i'm all for plato's philosopher-kings...

and as someone who had to take the citizenship test, i absolutely agree that everyone should have to take it to vote. i had to, why shouldn't someone who is a citizen by accident of birth?

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Curmudgeon — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:38:51 -0000

Hmmm. You got me thinking, as usual. I generally consider the elite as a state of mind, rather than the product of a specific set of experiences. I suppose I have the education, income, and life station to be considered elite, but I'm still the son of a steelworker, and I have many of the attitudes inherent in that heritage. I can't say that I consciously aspire to one or the other role; I just wear the persona that seems to fit.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

FFB — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:55:12 -0000

We're not really a democracy. No one I know voted for the president, we all voted for electors which isn't democracy. In fact true democracy means that anyone could rule and that's simple not the case. Just saying.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

FFB — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:52:45 -0000

It seems the intellectual elite has become looked down upon in this country. When did everything become so dumbed down? If the smartest, brightest people aren't the ones figuring things out then who will be? Yet people worship the athletic elite!

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Early Retirement Extreme — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:44:40 -0000

Smart alone is dangerous (Hi Wall Street).
Intellectual alone is useless (Hi ... uh me? :O) )

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

retiredsyd — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:41:16 -0000

Probably you're right, but the truth is, I'm not sure I really know what "smart" is, or whether I'm it (doesn't everyone think they are smart?)

For leaders, I think it's mandatory they are both (and I think Obama is definitely both, some other leaders, who shall remain nameless, neither.) Someone like Sarah Palin, probably smart, but not intellectually curious. If I'm going to be one or the other, I prefer the latter, myself. It's just more fun.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Steve — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:27:54 -0000

@retiredsyd: Thank YOU for saying "yay." :)

I certainly had my say about intellectual curiosity, too (http://www.bripblap.com/200.... I'd think a combination of smart and intellectually curious is better than one or the other alone, though...

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Steve — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:25:45 -0000

I think I've got a fair proposition about a voting test - it can take random questions from the citizenship test for immigrants (which is not simple at all).

It's never going to happen - voting "tests" were a mainstay of segregation, so I can't see them widely adopted in the future. It's a shame though - asking someone to know how many US senators a state has before allowing someone to vote for senator doesn't seem that harsh to me...

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

retiredsyd — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:15:57 -0000

Yay, someone finally said it! Thanks Steve and Jacob.

I like Chris Matthews' take on the issue, there's a difference between "smart" and "intellectually curious," and it is the latter group that he holds high esteem for. It's these people that know what they don't know and strive to learn it.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Early Retirement Extreme — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:09:29 -0000

That is the main problem of democracy. The question is how difficult are you going to make the test? You see, almost anyone can pick up a pitch fork and partake in a rebellion if they don't feel like they got anything to say. Democracy has been fairly effective in preventing such things.

Re: rebuilding the idea of elitism in America

Rhonda — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:02:56 -0000

Interesting post. I must say I agree with much of it, in as far as what is considered elite is something that is available (with effort, not entitlement) to everyone. As you say, education can be earned, the effort to appear polished and articulate can be practiced, contacts, knowledge can be cultivated, etc. As long as we don't end up with some kind of caste system where you can only be born elite, then I think elite is a good thing. Also, I hope along with re-invigorating the idea of elite, we would at the same time re-invigorate the idea of "nobless oblige" (sorry if I don't have the spelling correct). But the idea of giving back, of helping others get a leg up, community involvement, etc., that you haven't gotten to where you are without help, even if it is just being born Caucasion in an affluent country. I, too, think it is bizarre that it seems to be a handicap in politics right now to be intelligent, articulate, cultured, to speak another language fluently. Thanks for the great post.